Talk:Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia

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The terms "extremist", "terrorist" and "freedom fighter" should be avoided or used with care. Editors discussing the use of these terms are advised to familiarize themselves with the guideline, and discuss objections at the relevant talkpage, not here. If you feel this article represents an exception, then that discussion properly belongs here.

Suggestions for "See Also"

Nationalism - the rationale of the ASALA's existence
Separatism - a prerequisite for self determination of a national minority
Self determination - national autonomy
Sovereignty - the result of self determination and the goal of the ASALA

Diaspora - An internal link would contextualize Armenian nationalism within circumstances of political and social dispersal.

DJ Silverfish 20:24, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Terrorism - killing innocent diplomats in order to reach political claims

Armenian Terrorism - A Chronological List, 1973 - 1986

During a 16-year period from 1973 to 1986, various Armenian terrorist organisations claimed responsibility for about 200 attacks on Turkish diplomatic and non-diplomatic institutions and murdered 55 Turkish and 16 non-Turkish people and wounded hundreds of others. Armenians also targeted their own people who refused to make financial contribution to Armenian terrorism. Below is a chronological list of Armenian terrorist activities from 1973 to 1986.

http://www.atmg.org/ArmenianTerrorism.html

Irrelevant information

Armenian Genocide and goals of ASALA already mentioned in the description of the ASALA. There is no value for repeating same information right after the description and providing details of the Armenian Genocide, which not related to this article. Any person who will be in reading information about Armenian Genocide can access the link provided to Armenian Genocide wikipage and read it.

My proposal is to change The principal goal of ASALA was to establish a United Armenia that would include the formerly Armenian-inhabited six vilayets of the Ottoman Empire (Western Armenia) and Soviet Armenia.[18] The group sought to claim the area (called Wilsonian Armenia) that was promised to the Armenians by American President Woodrow Wilson in the 1920 Treaty of Sèvres, following the Armenian genocide, during which Ottoman Turks murdered 1.5 million Armenians.[19] to The principal goal of ASALA was to establish a United Armenia that would include the formerly Armenian-inhabited six vilayets of the Ottoman Empire (Western Armenia) and Soviet Armenia.[18] The group sought to claim the area (called Wilsonian Armenia) that was promised to the Armenians by American President Woodrow Wilson in the 1920 Treaty of Sèvres.

Waiting for justified objections. --Abrvagl (talk) 10:16, 2 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The entire reason why the Treaty of Sevres granted such a large area to Armenia was because of the genocide, so yes, it is relevant. (t · c) buidhe 10:38, 2 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Buidhe,

First, Both details of Armenian Genocide and why Treaty of Serves granted such a large area to Armenia are irrelevant to the article. Links to the Wikipedia pages for both Armenian Genocide and Treaty of Serves provided in the current article, where additional information accessible.

Second, just for my interest. I never read any source stating that "The entire reason why the Treaty of Sevres granted such a large area to Armenia was because of the genocide". Is it your personal opinion or you can provide valid sources?

My above proposed edit still valid and I am waiting for justified objections. If there is any then we will try to reach consensus, and if there will be no justified objections - I will apply the edit within the month.

--Abrvagl (talk) 11:43, 2 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

can you show us what policy are you basing your opinion on? If you continue posting your personal opinion without understanding how wikipedia works you'll just be wasting everybody's time, how the treaty of Sevres and the Armenian Genocide relate to the article are clear. You not liking it isn't an argument and doesn't give us reason to change anything. - Kevo³²⁷ (talk) 12:53, 2 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Buidhe,

I provided my justification and reasoning for proposed edit. You are the one who posting personal opinion (btw will you provide source for "The entire reason why the Treaty of Sevres granted such a large area to Armenia was because of the genocide" or it is your personal opinion?). Details Armenian Genocide already mentioned & linked in the description and more details on it provided under Origins and history section of the article. Mentioning details of the Armenian genocide in the main description is irrelevant to the article. Moreover statement "during which Ottoman Turks murdered 1.5 million Armenians." falls under [MOS:LABEL]] and not even alligned with the original article [[1]]. Please be constructive and do not waste my time, your not liking it and personal opinion is not argument against my proposal.

Therefore my proposal is is to change The principal goal of ASALA was to establish a United Armenia that would include the formerly Armenian-inhabited six vilayets of the Ottoman Empire (Western Armenia) and Soviet Armenia.[18] The group sought to claim the area (called Wilsonian Armenia) that was promised to the Armenians by American President Woodrow Wilson in the 1920 Treaty of Sèvres, following the Armenian genocide, during which Ottoman Turks murdered 1.5 million Armenians.[19] to The principal goal of ASALA was to establish a United Armenia that would include the formerly Armenian-inhabited six vilayets of the Ottoman Empire (Western Armenia) and Soviet Armenia.[18] The group sought to claim the area (called Wilsonian Armenia) that was promised to the Armenians by American President Woodrow Wilson in the 1920 Treaty of Sèvres. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Abrvagl (talk • contribs) 14:22, 2 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

While not agreeing with Abrvagl's actual proposed change, there may be some benefit in looking at the broader point regarding the lead. It mentions the Armenian Genocide in several places.

whose stated goal was "to compel the Turkish Government to acknowledge publicly its responsibility for the Armenian genocide in 1915, pay reparations, and cede territory for an Armenian homeland.
following the Armenian genocide, during which Ottoman Turks murdered 1.5 million Armenians
The U.S. Department of State, under President Ronald Reagan — as well as the militants themselves — attributed ASALA's deeds to Turkey's open denial of the Armenian genocide

Would it not be possible to consolidate these, possibly into two points since one point might be a bit unwieldy? FDW777 (talk) 08:42, 3 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

FDW777, do you think it would be better to move the US DoS paragraph to the motives section of the body? I think that would solve the repetition. - Kevo³²⁷ (talk) 13:26, 3 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That's reasonable I think, unsure if we need to retain the specific part about Turkish denial elsewhere in the lead though? FDW777 (talk) 14:44, 3 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Buidhe and FDW777, it is not about whether I like it or not. Below I will reason my decision:

1. I took the time to read [Paul M. Turkey: A Country Study] book to which above statement referenced. I could not find statement as following the Armenian genocide, during which Ottoman Turks murdered 1.5 million Armenians. There is no such statement in Pitman, Paul M. Turkey: A Country Study. Basically whole statement is someone's personal opinion. This is alone enough to remove statement from the article.

2. This article is about ASALA, not about Armenian Genocide. The fact that aim of ASALA was to hold Turkey responsible for Armenian Genocide already mentioned in the very beginning of the article and number of times in other parts of the article. Therefore details of Armenian Genocide are not relevant to the article, especially to the lead part of it.

3. Neither of the main articles Treaty of Sèvres and Wilsonian Armenia mention or provide source proving, that lands promised by the Woodrow Wilson following the Armenian Genocide. Moreover, main article Armenian genocide mentions " figures ranging from 600,000 to 1.5 million deaths", but statement in this article states "murdered 1.5 million Armenians". Main article states about "deaths", but editor used word "murdered". The fact that editor knowingly distorts information shows that this edit was not neutral, it was bias.

Again, I insist on my proposal - to remove statement as following the Armenian genocide, during which Ottoman Turks murdered 1.5 million Armenians. from the lead as it is not relevant to the article, not neutral, not soursed and bias.

--Abrvagl (talk) 15:54, 3 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There is no difference between the number of deaths and murders during a genocide, by definition. Wikipedia is not a reliable source for information. (t · c) buidhe 04:42, 4 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Dear buidhe, cant agree that there is no difference, actually there is big difference. If we talking about Armenian Genocide - we referring to the main article which clearly states death of 600,000 - 1,500,000 Armenians, All required sources already provided on the main article of Armenian Genocide and there is no need to argue here. You can not just put any numbers and wordings you like, it does not works like that. if you want to challenge and change "death of 600,000 - 1,500,000 Armenians" to "killing around 1 million Armenians." or to "murdered 1.5 million Armenians" you are welcome on the talk page of the Armenian Genocide article.

Please stop edit wars and be constructive. My goal is improve article, ensure that information is information is valid and consistent. So please be kind and provide justification on why we should not take information from the main article of Armenian genocide, but put inconsistent numbers? even in this page we have two mentions where in one it says "murdering of 1.5 million" and another "murder of 1 minion". what is the goal?

FDW777, please provide your opinion. --Abrvagl (talk) 07:06, 4 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I provided my opinion. I offered a reasonable compromise, you didn't object, another editor agreed, it was implemented, then you reverted claiming there wasn't consensus. As it appears "consensus" is currently "whatever Abrvagl says and nothing else" I have little else to say beyond what I've said already. FDW777 (talk) 08:34, 10 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"Terrorism" in first sentence

Mkltkn I suggest you consult the archives or comment here rather than continuing to edit war (t · c) buidhe 17:08, 27 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Buidhe I suggest you consult the archives or comment here rather than continuing to edit war. Mkltkn (talk) 12:25, 28 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In view of the evidences presented in the recognition section of this article itself, it seems like that especially taking action against identifying the organization as a terrorist organization seems to be an active breech of Wikipedia's neutrality stance. 46.2.220.90 (talk) 16:35, 22 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Memorial and genocide recognition

The article has a picture of the memorial. But it doesn't talk about it or provide references.

Also, the article says that the initial attacks led to wider knowledge of the genocide, but it doesn't provide a relevant reference for it. I wouldve expected a source like a survey of countries' attitudes after the attacks. Hovsepig (talk) 06:16, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]